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Brahminical Patriarchy vs Constitution of India and Indian Women

Where in the Mahabharata, Ramayana, Puranas, or any other Hindu scripture is there an example of a woman who changed her Varna through her own good Karma or actions without the involvement of a man (father or husband)?

I mean, can a Shudra woman become a Brahmin woman without marrying, just by her karma — say by helping other people, gaining wisdom, or by fighting like a Kshatriya — and then society accepts her as upgraded from a Shudra woman to a Kshatriya woman or Brahmin woman within the same life, not in the next life?

Response from Brahminical Patrairchy Man (Vedic Scholar)

"""
If a woman tried what Vishwamitra did, I sure would've given that example too
Don't know to the best of my knowledge
But it still proves such a possibility exists in VarnaAshrama Dharma as EXCEPTIONS
EXCEPTIONS don't make up for RULES.
"""

These statements establish that Brahminism is patriarchal with lower social mobility framework if we see it from modern equality lens.

My main problem is with people in urban India who read nothing and keep saying that in the ancient era men and women were equal.

I don’t want to debate about inferior or superior, I’m only interested in equal.

Men women are equal is the idea of "Protestant Christianity" of post enlightenment era

Response from Brahminical Patrairchy Man (Vedic Scholar)

"""
Sanatana Dharma NEVER SAYS ANYTHING about Equality because it IS NOT in line with KARMIC FOOT PRINTS, which are VERY VERY UNIQUE to every individual or every being.
We OUGHT to follow OUR OWN SWA DHARMA.
SwaDharma is the corner stone of SOCIAL and Gender Justice.
Every other idea is about POPULISM, PROSEYLITZING and SUBVERSION.
"""

Democracy is populism, as it counts the heads, not what’s inside them, but that’s the foundation of the Indian state, and India can’t exist without it.

Over the years, people have improved the framework a lot — for example, Amartya Sen shifted the focus from one metric, money or wealth, to multidimensional metrics seen in the various indexes we use today.

European and Scandinavian countries use this and live a higher quality of material life without wasting resources like Americans.

Response from Brahminical Patrairchy Man (Vedic Scholar)

"""
POPULISM IS NOT PRINCIPLES.
Democracy PROBABLY works in those cultures where Proseylitzing is the norm. one day thy follow one Principle and another day another.
Democracy as it is designed in Constitution of India is of FUNDAMENTALLY DESTRUCTIVE Nature, as far as Sanatana Dharma is concerned.
"""

So, we finally concluded two important questions.

Q1. What is the difference between the definition of equality from perspective of (i) Constitution and (ii) Sanatana Dharma (must be rooted in scripture, ideally in Upanishads)?

Q2. What is the difference between proselytizing and reform, as reform will look like proselytizing to orthodox people?

Write your answers below .
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Yash Pratap Author

Web Dev, System Design, AI
(edited)
Sambasiva Darbha I tried my best to create a relevant post based on our conversation.

Let’s see what people think about the question of equality from the perspectives of the (i) Constitution (ii) Sanatana Dharma

AND

The difference between proselytising and reform as reform will look like proselytising to orthodox people.

For Context:

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7399297937798889472?commentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Acomment%3A%28activity%3A7399297937798889472%2C7399415528307740672%29&dashCommentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afsd_comment%3A%287399415528307740672%2Curn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A7399297937798889472%29
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Yash Pratap Author

Web Dev, System Design, AI
(edited)
Varna and caste are different concepts. People often say Varna is flexible, but even Varna is not flexible, as there is almost no evidence of a Shudra woman becoming a Brahmin woman within the same life by her own karma even in mythology.

This conversation exposes the foundation of Sanatana Dharma believers who claim gender equality within Sanatana Dharma from a modern equality perspective instead of Swadharma.

In Rig Veda only gender irrelevance exists not the gender equality

Men women equal is an idea of Protestant Christianity.

John Wesley (1703–1791), founder of Methodism—a Protestant denomination that emerged as a revival movement within the Church of England—emphasized that men and women are spiritually equal, equally capable of faith and salvation. Unlike Martin Luther, Wesley allowed women to preach, lead class meetings, and actively participate in ministry. He also encouraged women’s education, especially for religious understanding and social engagement, and supported their involvement in charitable and community work.
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Yash Pratap Author

Web Dev, System Design, AI
Caste problem existed everywhere around the globe but it became severe in India due to Hindu Philosophy.

To sustain a population where people are not able to get any help from others then there must be fear among people for helping others.

In Islam/Christianity if you help some lower caste person then you will not be punished and even if you get punished you will get punished for one life as there is no concept of rebirth, there is a concept of heaven, hell and judgement.

In Hinduism, if you help lower caste person then you will get punished for multiple lives as there is a concept of multiple births and person belong to lower caste earned suffering by sins of his previous birth and will get redeemed in successive births, so you can relax and you don't need to rebel.

You can't solve Indian caste problem with conversion of Hindus to some other religion instead

1. You need to remove the concept of "rebirth" and "multiple birth" from the minds of common people. It will make 95% of the Hindu scriptures null & void except few deeper and important scriptures like ken-Upnishad.

2. You need to industrialize and Urbanize, the caste system started with agriculture where people live at a fixed place for generations.
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Yash Pratap Author

Web Dev, System Design, AI
(edited)
There was no concept of equality, only Swadharma in Sanatana Dharma, which means that in Rigvedic times, gender irrelevance existed, while in later texts like the Yajurveda, Samaveda, and Atharvaveda, gender equality never existed.

Stephanie W. Jamison & Joel Brereton (Yale University) authored a highly accurate study of the Rigveda, published by Oxford in 2014.

Rigvedic society (1500 BC, pre Iron Age or before 1200 BC) was tribal and clan-based (jana and kula), non-centralized with no monarchy. Women participated in rituals, education, and hymn composition, showing flexible social roles. Status depended on inheritance, ability, wealth, and ritual skill, allowing warriors, patrons, and priests to gain influence beyond birth.
Michael Witzel, Harvard University, Sanskrit expert

In the Yajurveda and Samaveda (c. 1200–900 BCE), women’s roles in rituals and Vedic learning declined, as priestly authority became male-dominated. By the Atharvaveda (c. 1000–900 BCE), women participated mainly in household and domestic rituals, showing some agency but limited compared to the Rigvedic period.
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Yash Pratap Author

Web Dev, System Design, AI
(edited)
There was no concept of equality before Protestant Christianity, instead, there was a concept of irrelevance. In modern DEI terms, religion attempted inclusion before equity.

Osho said:

Eastern civilization talks about higher things without building a foundation

Western civilization is superior because it establishes the foundations correctly.

That is why Westerners gain wisdom from Eastern philosophy much faster than Eastern people themselves.
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Taniya Andola • 1st

CS aspirant | Learning & preparing to become a social activist | Feminist | Vegan 🌱
(edited)
The caste system should be ended..
Let's forget about the caste.. 🤡meanwhile gov want to to 😂caste census.
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Yash Pratap Author

Web Dev, System Design, AI
(edited)
Taniya Andola Yess. Btw caste census is a different issue and it's necessary for implementation of policies according to developmental economics and just by not doing caste census we'll not be able to forget about the caste system. We're discussing Varna's here and How religion had no concept of equality as we know.
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Yash Pratap Author

Web Dev, System Design, AI
(edited)
Taniya Andola In Chapter 1 of the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna is explaining to Arjuna to give up Varna prejudices, but I wasn't able to find him encouraging gender equality, because equality wasn’t a concept in Sanatana Dharma. He was teaching the irrelevance of gender and Varna and why it’s important to do the right thing. Equality is the idea of Protestant Christianity.

Bhagwad Geeta is based on Kath Upanishad which is based on Yajurveda (when gender inequality wasn't big enough)

primarily means heavily influenced

To know more checkout the link below

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7399793456933605376?commentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Acomment%3A%28activity%3A7399793456933605376%2C7399920506138845184%29&dashCommentUrn=urn%3Ali%3Afsd_comment%3A%287399920506138845184%2Curn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A7399793456933605376%29

For Law of Karma (it's not Tit4Tat)

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/yashp2411_geeta-karma-activity-7399071150988787712-9zeD?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_android&rcm=ACoAACxrlNsBn9c2b7b2lZ8UK2ckDiW-YTjaB0I
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Rakesh Kumar • 1st

Story Teller - Student
Very well said Yash Pratap
Btw - by the same logic - a BRAHMIN should be demoted to SHUDRA status if they do anything anti social or against the rules laid down in our religious texts !! No?

My 2 cents:
1. CASTEISM is a DIRTY BLOT on HINDUISM that has kept us divided for centuries. But there is NO HINDUISM without CASTEISM 🤣
2. ALL HUMANS ARE BORN EQUAL IN THE EYES OF GOD - Simple
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Yash Pratap Author

Web Dev, System Design, AI
Rakesh Kumar We need to acknowledge the sacrifice of Protestant Christianity who allowed the rationality to flourish. Men women are equal is the idea of Protestant Christianity. John Wesley (1703–1791), founder of Methodism—a Protestant denomination that emerged as a revival movement within the Church of England—emphasized that men and women are spiritually equal, equally capable of faith and salvation. Unlike Martin Luther, Wesley allowed women to preach, lead class meetings, and actively participate in ministry. He also encouraged women’s education, especially for religious understanding and social engagement, and supported their involvement in charitable and community work.
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Rakesh Kumar • 1st

Story Teller - Student
Yash Pratap Totally agree.
We should also acknowledge the fact that if it weren't for the Christian British - there would be NO INDIA - there would have been princely states only !!
We would need visas to go to S India or West India etc etc.
Also acknowledge the fact that they tried their best to bring equality in Indian society via various measures including schools that were open & accessible to every one....etc etc
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Shailesh Shende • 2nd

Co-Founder & Global Head Business Development
(edited)
May be Mr. Bhimrao Ambedkar's studies and works can enlighten further and bring clarity as he is the only person on the earth who has galloped every religion and come to a finding about constitutional form of rule book for social structure which gives rights and freedom to follow ones religion beliefs faiths culture tradition with expression w/o interfering others , includes gender equality too.

Any one group of people created social structure practices and functioning w/o stakeholders inputs cannot be accepted and followed blindly w/o deep dive and introspection. For an example , like the Manusmriti form of a rule book whose functioning and practices were very atrocious and dangerous for the society w/o scientific backing were altogether abolished and burned before accepting constitution.

Insightful and thoughtful post 👍
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Yash Pratap Author

Web Dev, System Design, AI
Shailesh Shende I think people in India must acknowledge the contribution of Protestant Christianity who enabled all the changes. Attributing everything to Dr Ambedkar will be highly misleading as it will build the narrative that it's a social structure problem not the problem of religion itself. The religion of Sanatana Dharma is the real problem
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Yash Pratap Author

Web Dev, System Design, AI
(edited)
Shailesh Shende British weren't monolith either, it's the efforts of left wing labour party backed by London school of economics and Fabian Socialism which enables liberation of the India and other British colonies.


To know more checkout the link below

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/yashp2411_ambedkar-genz-corporateabrmajdoor-activity-7383463631004483584-umJf?utm_source=social_share_video_v2&utm_medium=android_app&rcm=ACoAACxrlNsBn9c2b7b2lZ8UK2ckDiW-YTjaB0I&utm_campaign=copy_link
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Shivani Narang • Following

Burnout Recovery Coach ll Mindfulness Coach ll Founder
Yash Pratap I love how you question the rigid beliefs, see beyond biases and ask "I mean, can a Shudra woman become a Brahmin woman without marrying, just by her karma"
Where i am not in favor of caste system anyways, if we have to, we should all be given our caste based on our karma, otherwise, we put brahmin rapists on pedestals and call them "sanskari" and let them get away.
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Yash Pratap Author

Web Dev, System Design, AI
Shivani Narang Varna and caste aren't the same thing. People say Varna should be based on Karma and I asked this question how many female shudra changed their varna even in the mythology and if not then the religion itself is rigid. Why even among males there are very few examples of people changing Varna in mythology. So, the problem exists in the religion itself which this person in conversation acknowledged. The first issue is lack of Honesty in urban Indians in acknowledgement that there was no concept of equality in Hindu's mythology and Varna was always a rigid and unfair system even in mythology.
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Yash Pratap Author

Web Dev, System Design, AI
Shivani Narang Gender Equality is the idea of Protestant Christianity and it kept evolving till we reach Feminism of Virginia Woolf, Simone and Bell Hooks. That's why Gender and Caste Inequality is normalised in Indian psyche.

For context :

John Wesley (1703–1791), founder of Methodism—a Protestant denomination that emerged as a revival movement within the Church of England—emphasized that men and women are spiritually equal, equally capable of faith and salvation. Unlike Martin Luther, Wesley allowed women to preach, lead class meetings, and actively participate in ministry. He also encouraged women’s education, especially for religious understanding and social engagement, and supported their involvement in charitable and community work.
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